Our culture typically defines justice through the lens of crime and punishment. Violate the law and you will be punished. But how does justice address the victim? Are they to be healed through revenge? Today, you will hear the courageous story of Marlee Liss, who sought an alternative path for justice after being sexually assaulted — a path of compassion and transformation.
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Human beings have been grappling with the notion of justice for millennia. You may remember the Code of Hammurabi from history class which served as the Babylonian code of law of ancient Mesopotamia. It established parameters around fines and punishments to meet the requirements of justice. We may now look back on this code as being unfair as it divided people into 3 classes who all received different treatment. However, it did establish the core judicial tenet of an “eye for an eye” that was subsequently echoed in the Hebrew bible and codified in many codes of law – essentially the principle that a person who has injured another person is to be penalized to a similar degree, and the person inflicting such punishment should be the injured party.
Indeed, we have largely defined justice through the lens of crime and punishment. Someone violates the law and they are punished. Our justice system focuses on the assailant, the one who has caused the harm. But what about the victim, the one that endures the harm. How does justice address the victim? Are they to be healed through revenge?
Today, on the show, you will hear the courageous story of Marlee Liss who sought alternative path for justice after she was sexually assaulted, a path focused on healing and transformation. This emerging approach, known as restorative justice, involves direct communication between a victim and their assailant for the purposes of addressing the harm done, making amends and a reintegration of the parties into their communities.
This approach to justice requires tremendous clarity and compassion on the part of the victim but, as you will hear from Marlee, it may have saved her life.
My name is Jeff Krasno and welcome to Commune.
Marlee: I'm Marlee. I live in Toronto. I have just founded an organization called Re-Humanize. It's a nonprofit focused on restorative justice for sexual violence, which, of course, ties into my story. I also do a transformational retreats right alongside my mom, and I'm a writer.
Jeff Krasno: Can you elaborate a little bit on the journey that has taken you into this present incarnation of yourself?
Marlee: Yeah, absolutely. I think the biggest catalyst of transformation in my life was experiencing sexual assault. About three years ago, I had been living on a meditation center for the divine feminine for three months. I got home, and a week after that I was raped by a stranger. Alcohol involved. It was roughly a four-hour assault, and it was undeniably non-consensual. Sent me into a deep, deep, deep depression. Went through PTSD and just so much grief. Eventually I was teetering on the edge of life. Just kind of got to this place where I wasn't sure I wanted to continue living.
They started going through the court process. When I had reported, it's a really key moment in my journey that I was given the choice to either report or not, and I wanted something in the realm of justice, so I chose to report, and that led me towards like a three-year conventional punitive track of the system. I went to preliminary court. I took the stand for five hours. I was kind of being like, "Who's really on trial here?" There was just so much questions and skepticism and everything.
Eventually, when I got subpoenaed for criminal trial, I had just done so much deep inner healing work and so much learning in terms of rape culture and patriarchy and intergenerational trauma that it just became really clear to me that the punitive outcome was not something I wanted. What I really wanted was what I learned was restorative justice.
Jeff Krasno: What would you say going back to that time that wasn't working for you within the conventional justice system, and I guess more specifically, what were you as the human that was being harmed looking for?
Marlee: Yeah, that's a great question. I never ever found in the criminal justice system that my voice was honored or even listened to or even consulted with. It was like, "Hey, you consented to this whole process in a state of shock like three years ago, so now you have to proceed with this system." That's very re-traumatizing. That's looking at my situation.
Then in terms of my perpetrator, my assailant, I just didn't believe that either incarceration or acquittal would be the thing that would change him. What was really important to me was that he was transformed, like was that he wouldn't do this again, that he would learn, that he would develop such deep empathy that he could feel into the harm he caused. I really believe that just feeling into that alone would be a huge catalyst for transformation.
Jeff Krasno: I mean, I guess my question would be how were you just not so angry that all you could think about was retribution or revenge, and is that part of just the work that you have done as a human prior to the assault or maybe after the assault? I'm just curious how you were able to sort of transcend, I guess I would say that's, I don't know, more animal instinct for eye for an eye.
Marlee: I think it's a combination of a few of the things you mentioned. I was doing so much healing work at the time, and that's because it sort of brought to it a life or death situation where it was like if I didn't go to therapy and find yoga and learn about meditation and breath work and eventually I met this incredible indigenous elder and I began assisting on her women's retreats... and I just learned so much from all those different communities about trauma being rooted in something much bigger than our individual selves. I think what happened for me was I realized, I was like, "It's not actually my assailant, it's not 100% my assailant alone that has caused this pain in my life. It's a whole system and a whole culture, and it's something that we've been justifying for so long that eventually it led him to be able to justify that."
But I just saw the root of it being like I don't think violation happens from someone just being a bad seed. I don't really believe that anyone is just born a bad seed. That's my belief. But I started asking, "What happened between the time a baby with born and a perpetrator was made?" and it made me question larger systems.
Jeff Krasno: Right. I suppose that takes a lot of grace to move beyond oneself in that regard and to have that kind of compassion when you were looking, and I don't assume to know what you were looking for, but what I would imagine you would be looking for is acknowledgement and maybe even an apology or some sort of notion that it might not happen again.
Marlee: Yeah. That was actually the first thing that came to me. I think it's interesting. In terms of a need for retaliation, I feel like after the assault, I was so focused on myself and my own healing that I didn't really have a minute to think about what would happen to him. I think that shifted things for me, but I said from the very beginning... and I didn't know restorative justice existed until about a year ago, but I said at the very beginning, "All I want is to sit down with this person, have them look me in the eye and acknowledge me as a human and witness the grief that they caused." I said that literally from like days after the assault. I kind of held it in secret because it felt like a delusional dream in contrast to how the system is, so I didn't really make the effort for it to actually happen until I learned that restorative justice existed.
Jeff Krasno: Yeah. I'm curious to know how you discovered it. Clearly, you discovered it because conventional justice was just not working for you on many levels as you've described and that it just was not addressing... and I heard you talk about this in videos and on your website about there is this almost kind of like mechanistic component to traditional conventional kind of Middle Ages justice of script reading almost that seemed like so dehumanizing. You talk about that beautifully. I'm curious, how did this notion of restorative justice come to you because it's not something that I see out in the popular zeitgeist, though I hope you change that.
Marlee: Thank you. Me too. Yeah, I think it is done way more commonly than we're aware of. Definitely not for sexual assault, not yet, but in other countries and New Zealand, it's done very frequently. It's incredibly successful so much of the time. I know my experience was so successful.
How did I find out about it? Basically, when I got subpoenaed for the criminal trial, I was so fed up with the system, and I was just like... It's so traumatizing to take the stand and to just be questioned about these deeply invasive and horribly intimate things, and to be met with disbelief and skepticism, it's just the least trauma-informed thing, ironically, in the world, so I was like not excited to be subpoenaed. I said that I'm probably going to just drop the charges, but that still felt so off in my body.
I remember before I decided to drop them, I told one friend, I told her, I was like, "If it were my world, this is what it would be. It would be like a sit... like we would sit down," and I described that vision where we just like have a conversation and are humans about it all. She said, "So make it happen." I just had never considered it. It just felt so far off from what I knew reality to be that I was like, "I just hadn't thought of that." It sparked such... It was such a catalyst for me when she said that. It made me realize I had met a woman while I was traveling in Europe. She lives in Germany. She had mentioned to me once that they do some alternative things to punitive justice over there. I reached out to her and said, "Can you help me?" and she said, "Look up restorative justice."
At that point, I literally posted in my Instagram story saying, "Does anyone know anything about restorative justice?" and someone answered and was like, "Check out this organization," and then that organization connected me with a lawyer who specializes in this, and we just called a meeting with the prosecutor about a month before my trial was supposed to happen. I think we caught them like quite off guard. It was an interesting kind of... There was a lot of pushback for sure.
Jeff Krasno: Yeah, as there is to anything that's new and different, I suppose.
Jeff Krasno: What was happening with your assailant at this juncture? I assume he was going through this kind of parallel process as well.
Marlee: I mean, I know that now because now I've had the chance to meet him in this eight-hour circle that we eventually met in, but at the time I didn't know anything. I think that's another interesting aspect of criminal justice is that the victim and the perpetrator are kept as far away from each other as possible, which makes sense for safety, but it also prevents a lot of those needs that victims have and I know that I had in terms of asking certain questions, witnessing remorse, hearing accountability or an apology and just won't ever happen with the criminal justice system.
Jeff Krasno: Yeah. But you managed to convince the justice system to see it your way. What did that actually look like? I mean, what happened?
Marlee: It was an interesting process for sure. I know so much more about it now. I think it was almost beneficial that I was quite ignorant about how revolutionary what I was asking for was because I was pretty casual about it in a way. But I just... We called a meeting with them. We came in, and there were two prosecutors in the room. I said, "I don't want to go to trial. This is what I want instead. I want restorative justice. I want him to get help. I want him to have healing and therapy, and I want us to be able to like sit down humans and heal. Been broken." The initial response I got was this sort of like, "Oh, sweetie, don't you understand? Rape is bad."
I was like, "Of anyone in the room, I definitely understand that this assault was really bad." What I said is, "I think it's so bad that we have to be considering alternative options because what we're doing is not working. Rates of sexual assault are not declining, and we're seeing people either be acquitted, or they go to prison, and they often come out more violent. It's just this ongoing cycle of pain and violence."
I said my little speech, and they kept kind of being like, "Let's just go to trial. Let's just go to trial." Basically, what happened is there was the one prosecutor who was quite against it in terms of "rape equals bad, bad equals prison," and the other one was so excited that I was proposing something different because she has seen how broken the system is, and she's really seen how painful trials are for survivors as well. She was like, "Yes, finally."
There was kind of this back and forth dance for a while of like, "We are either getting a yes or no," and we just left the meeting being like, "We'll see what happens." My lawyer was like, "That was pretty epic." I was like, "Was it?" Then we left, and there was maybe like a month period of where it kept shifting like "it's going to happen, it's not going to happen." Eventually, I got a phone call from my lawyer, and actually, it was like the night before that I was like, "It really seems like it's not going to happen," and I kept being told, "Don't get your hopes up."
I was at this point where I was like, "I'm ready to drop the charges if this isn't happening. That's just really clear to me." I sort of let it all go. That came with a lot of grief. Then the next day, I got a call from my lawyer saying, "A judge said yes. We're doing this, and your assailant's going to start therapy right away. Eventually, when it seems that he's ready, when he's ready to take accountability and everything, we'll meet in a mediation circle." It was like the most beautiful moment ever. I just broke down into tears, and every sense of
Marlee: I had carried with me since the trauma of just like, wow, like this is not the world I thought I lived in. I just felt like so much beyond reassurance, like so much excitement of just like wow, like I wasn't wrong to believe in love and transformation and you know, making our dreams a reality. I wasn't just naive and floaty to believe in all that it. It was like deeply empowering and healing just to get the yes.
Jeff Krasno: Hmm. That's beautiful. So then, so I assume that he did then go through therapy and then you met. Can you describe a little bit of that scene, meeting in the circle and what happened?
Marlee: Yeah. It's a big question. So he went to therapy for about seven months and he's received training in consent. He learned about how the patriarchy had impacted his life and shaped him and all these things, which is just incredible, like that alone, I really already felt like the process had given me so much justice and healing before the meeting even happened.
So when we did get to the meeting, I was really just like, you know, I am proud of myself for showing up. I'm proud of myself for asking for this. Just like it was a really, it was a sense of like whatever happens, happens. I've already done what had to do. And yet, there was so much healing that happened in that room that I definitely didn't even realize that I needed.
Basically we walked in and restorative justice takes a community oriented approach, so it looks at who was impacted by this, beyond the victim. So my mom was there, my sister was there, my lawyer, the prosecutor who was very supportive, my assailant and his friend.
And we sat in a circle on chairs with a sort of altar in the center. Restorative justice also had indigenous and multi-faith roots so there were some sacred medicines to acknowledge that. And there was a beautiful tree in the center and they said this tree represents how all the different unique branches can coexist in one space. It was so beautiful. There was quotes about courage around the walls.
So we came in and they said we ask that you acknowledge every person in the room in a way that feels good for you so that's already a pretty big deal. As much as it was like exactly what I wanted and deeply healing and empowering, it was also very hard. My heart was racing the whole day and my body was definitely shaking but yeah, so we sat down and they, basically the two mediators, just asked us one question, which was what brought you here today?
And we all spoke one at a time. The first time I spoke I talked for like maybe over an hour and I just like went so deep into my being in and said this is your moment. I can say whatever you have to say, ask what ever you have to ask, and yeah, it was really profound.
Jeff Krasno: And let me ask you about that, because obviously I mean this is a long time. The journey, just in time, is long and I've got to imagine that you've mulled over in your head hundreds if not thousands of times what you might say if you were ever given the opportunity to directly address your assailant.
So I'm wondering when it was your turn in that circle, did you know what you were going to say or was this just essentially like a complete improvisational opening of the heart? I'm just curious what you said and what was going through your mind at that point.
Marlee: Yeah. I think when I started I was really just focused on like regulating myself. I'm like okay, breathe.
Jeff Krasno: Yeah.
Marlee: I was really clear and intent that I did not want to speak from a script. I think that's something I really associated with court, like being on, saying the right thing, and this to me was like a really safe and brave space to say anything that came. So I feel I did that. I feel I really spoke from the present, like with whatever I had to say.
There were questions I knew I had been like burning to ask for years of just like really just like why? Like why did this happen? What was going on in your head when this happened? You know? So there were things like that, that I had in mind.
But I remember going just so deeply in words and like I remember connecting with the version of myself that was just struggling to survive. And I was like, here we are, say what you have to say, show how hurt you were. You know?
Jeff Krasno: Yeah.
Marlee: And that was really powerful. Like to tell him that I actually like almost took my life from this. It felt very powerful to tell him that, to show him that.
Jeff Krasno: Yeah. And did you, as you were speaking, did you feel like he was acknowledging what was coming from you? And I assume that he also spoke?
Marlee: Yeah. Yeah, he did. So my biggest fear, I guess, going in was that he would just be like stone, like that he would be totally unmoved and not present at all and just like as if you like just showed up to like get a check mark. That was my biggest fear.
Jeff Krasno: Yeah.
Marlee: And he like really went beyond my greatest hopes with that, I guess. Like he was so clearly there and was so willing to be like affected by what we were saying. I watched him a lot when my mom was speaking to and he would just, he would tear up, at different points. That was, like something about that was deeply meaningful. Like yes. Like yes, shed tears over this. That felt powerful.
And he was so present with eye contact and I remember it kind of felt like in theater when you like break the fourth wall, I remember at one point I was like, you know, since this happened I've been asking, all I've wanted is to like sit down and be looked in the eye when I speak about this and like that's what's happening right now. And I just like named it. It was really, yeah, it was really powerful.
Jeff Krasno: And what did he say?
Marlee: Yeah. So eventually it got to him. He was the last person to speak in a circle. We did, we went around three rounds, but the first was definitely the longest. I guess, I'll share even before him, just a really interesting side note is like the friend that came with him who was really supposed to be there just as a support person, just broke down sobbing, was just sobbing and sobbing. And he said to us, he's like, I never cry in front of people. I was in the military. My dad always taught me not to cry, but I've never been a part of anything like this. And that was just like so incredible to witness, just like the transformation this was having on him and the ripples that that has.
And so my assailant spoke after that and yeah, and he started by, he kind of explained his narrative in chronological order and I think that was in response to what I had been asking of just like what was going on.
He explained actually that, that he completely repressed what happened after it did, that when I ran out in the morning, he just like locked those memories up and so he was very confused when he got charged about a week later. And that was really hard to hear. I wasn't sure if that was going to just be his narrative, like if it was just that. And I feel like that gave me a glimpse into a criminal trial. And like I described it as like I turned to stone and cracked and died because I wasn't sure if he was denying it.
But eventually he said that what happened was, yeah, so he got charged and he actually felt like he was being wronged because he's like what's this about? And eventually someone close to him in his life disclosed that they were sexually assaulted and they told him about it and they kept saying, this is my fault, this is my fault. And he said something along the lines of, it's not your fault. And when he said that, he said that all his memories unlocked and he remembered the whole night. He remembered every detail and how non consensual and how brutal it was. And he looked me right in the eyes, and I feel like from the depths of him, apologized and said fully I sexually assaulted you. I'm so sorry. There's nothing I can do to take it back. I hope that being here today can help.
And that's the moment that I'm like, I didn't know I even needed that healing as much as I did, but I just broke down into tears and it was like a knot untying in my stomach. It was like very, very, very deep release. And I was like, wow. Like I, I don't know if everyone wants it, but part of me like wishes this moment for every survivor.
Jeff Krasno: Yeah. I would ask you, I guess about that, I mean, you said earlier that what you were looking for a sort of an acknowledgement from him of your humanity and from your telling of the story, it seems you got that through this restorative process and that that more addressed the harm that was caused to you, to your family. I wonder if you would recommend that system or this alternative approach to everyone.
Marlee: That's an interesting question. I wouldn't necessarily recommend it to everyone just because I don't think justice is like a one size fits all thing. You know, there's certain cases where the person's maybe done this a hundred times and like there's really potentially not any space for transformation.
Jeff Krasno: Right.
Marlee: But I definitely am a huge advocate for this process. I think that survivors have a huge right to know that it exists and to know that there's so many different forms that it can take. Because for some people they would absolutely not want to sit in a circle with their assailant, but there's other forms of writing letters or having the person attend therapy still and hearing about their progress. There's so many creative options and I just think that our world really needs, in terms of like breaking those chains of dehumanization.
I don't know why we've gotten to a place where we think we can end dehumanization by responding to violence with dehumanization.
Jeff Krasno: Right.
Marlee: It just doesn't make sense to me. And the clarity of a transformation being possible.
Jeff Krasno: Right.
Marlee: I just like, I'm really holding that, and I really got to experience and see firsthand that trauma can be a catalyst for transformation for the victim. We know that, like we see so many survivors become activists, like I've done that. But trauma, inflicting trauma, can also be a catalyst for transformation.
Marlee: Especially with sexual assaults, often there aren't any physical injuries, often. Often it's a broken spirit that we're addressing, and we're trying to do that without discussing or leaving any room for spirit or the heart. So, it doesn't work. Whereas, this was so whole, and so honest and ... yeah. I feel this is what my spirit wanted. That was so clear. This was very much guided by something beyond myself, and yeah. In terms of reassurance of will he commit this crime again, that's a great question and it's been shown time and time again that victims number one wants are accountability and second to that is reassurance that the crime won't happen again. That's a big focus of restorative justice. It's all about repair.
I feel very, very confident that my assailant will not do this again. I would be completely shocked if he did this again, just witnessing his level of transformation. Even beyond that, I would not be surprised to see him become a community leader in preventing violence. And I think for some people that sounds delusional. And I think to that I would say, "We need to uplift our cultural standards of what is possible", because transformation is possible. And we've seen so many people become community leaders after doing awful things. So yeah, I really got to witness his transformation and it was incredible.
Jeff Krasno: That is amazing. That's amazing.
Jeff Krasno: Let me ask you a question about your mom, because you brought her up, and you mentioned that she was in the circle that day. I'm curious how this journey impacted your relationship with her.
Marlee: Yeah, it impacted our relationship a lot. I think that she had a huge dissent after this happened alongside me, this trauma. I'm not a mom and I don't know. But, her love for me is so deep, and to just see me hurt in such a way, broke her. And, the same way that I began questioning everything in terms of how are we treating each other like this? And what does it mean to be a woman in the world? And all these things. She also started questioning everything. And so, this really sparked a huge awakening for her. And I'm so blessed to have her.
She became such a pillar for me at this time. I was just falling apart and she was totally this pillar. I was in a state of such dissociation that I wouldn't even speak sometimes, for like a whole day. But I was writing a lot and I would just kind of slide my poems across the table to communicate where I was at. And she was incredible, and she would just, "What do you need today?" So, we got so, so, so close through that, and this led her to her own path of healing. Now she's like a Reiki practitioner, and now we'd be lead retreats together for women.
But we really shared in this descent. And around the same time we realize, wow, we're going to be okay. And when we come out of this hole, we're going to do some epic things together. And we really have. We have fun doing it. And now we've founded this organization together, and she also was in the circle. I know not all moms would necessarily be there, but she's so strong and so centered in heart. And she sat in a circle and she voiced her ... how dare you hurt my baby girl? And she also voiced her sense of forgiveness. And I think that's so powerful.
Jeff Krasno: Yeah. I want to ask you about that. I suppose just quite simply, do you forgive your assailant?
Marlee: I think, yes. And I always just want to say like ... I always kind of add this disclaimer, I guess. I'm not sure why ... of just this clarity of forgiveness is vastly different than justification.
Jeff Krasno: Right.
Marlee: And also, I feel that forgiveness can coexist with any emotion. I don't think it's like either sadness or forgiveness. I do feel forgiveness. I do feel very much aware that he's been raised within a culture that has normalized these awful things. And I see that he's changing, and I see that he's deeply sorry. And yeah, I feel a strong sense of compassionate. Despite everything. It's like, I surprise myself when I say these words sometimes.
Jeff Krasno: That I'm that good? That there's that much goodness inside me?
Jeff Krasno: Yeah. I mean, I think it seems like one of the lessons of restorative justice is that forgiveness itself does not forsake accountability or justice. That you can have both at the same time. That seems relatively foreign a notion to our conventional kind of crime and punishment approach to justice. I'd love just to kind of talk a little bit more about what you're doing now with your mom. Because I think this is such an incredible story, Marley. And it's very rare that people can find meaning in their suffering, and Viktor Frankl writes about this, and this is a constant theme on the show, is that finding meaning in life, that's kind of what we need more than anything. And that it is so hard, and sort of so illogical on some level. It doesn't sort of square with our rational approach to life that you can find meaning in suffering, but you have. And so, can you describe a little bit about kind of what you and your mom are doing now?
Marlee: Yeah. Thank you. Yeah, so now we've founded this organization. It was really clear to me, especially after the circle that I wanted to make ripples with this. And I actually said during the circle, to my assailant, "This is so much bigger than us." It's so much bigger than us in terms of transforming a whole culture, and just collective healing. So, that was really clear. When we left the circle we were all pretty much on a high actually, which is amazing. Because like no one leaves court as far as I know, joyfully. And by the end of that day it was quite a joyful feeling. Almost celebration. Like wow, we did this really hard thing and it works. And so, we left, and my mom and I were like, "Okay, let's take some time to process this emotionally."
And then we were like, "You know, let's make this a foundation. Let's get incorporated." And so, now we're a not-for-profit, soon to be a charity, hopefully. And we're focusing on restorative justice for sexual violence. We're taking a survivor-centered approach. So we're asking that people look towards survivors and say, "What does this look like to you? What is your dream in terms of justice? And how can we make justice synonymous with healing rather than punishment?" And there's a lot of organizations that are doing the how of this work in terms of like actually facilitating these circles. But what we're focused on is communicating the why, to the masses.
Because I think it's such a mind blowing, paradigm shifting topic for people that it's going to facilitate huge change to just even be like, "Hey, this is why I did this and now this is what it meant to be. And, maybe you want to do this too." And you know, since sharing my story in the media, I've heard from probably thousands of survivors. And of course, I've heard every opinion on the spectrum, such as the nature of the internet. But I've heard a lot of people say, "I wish I could have had this" or, "How can I have this now?" Or, "It was deeply healing to just even learn that this is an option."
Jeff Krasno: Yeah. Yeah. Because, I guess some of these things are hard to presage that this might be something that is important to your life until something, I suppose very difficult and ... happens. Well, I think doing something different always takes a lot of courage, and you're someone that seems not to take no for an answer. And I mean that in the most complimentary way possible. I think obviously there's millions of women that can see their story in yours. And that's why I think it's so important, not just courageous, but important that you are on the forefront of sharing it. Because it's the storytelling that people can empathize with, and see their own journey in yours. And so, thank you for that. And then, thank you for bringing an alternative approach, I hope, into the mainstream because from everything that I've read, and from everything that heard you talk about, there needs to be a significant place for an approach that is restorative. That takes the harm of the victim and makes that paramount. So, you're very, very brave, and I appreciate you deeply, and God bless you.
Marlee: Thank you so, so, so much. And thank you for the opportunity to share.
Jeff: Thank you for listening to Marlee’s brave journey. I think many people may see their own story in hers and perhaps find an alternate route to heal.
Restorative Justice is a theory of justice that emphasizes repairing the harm caused by criminal behavior. It is best accomplished through the cooperation of all willing stakeholders. This can lead to transformation of people, relationships and communities.
As Marlee noted, this approach is not for everyone. However, if you are interested in finding out more please visit www.rehumanizemovement.com, the organization that Marlee and her mother founded to champion restorative justice. Marlee is available for speaking engagements and workshops and if you are inclined you can donate and bring more awareness to this unique and powerful approach to justice and healing.
If you have questions about today’s show or suggestions about the show in general, please email me at [email protected] I really appreciate hearing from you and take your comments and questions incredibly seriously.
That’s all from the Commune for this week. My name is Jeff Krasno and I’ll see you next time.